A somewhat interesting conversation I had today on IRC, as these are common and this is one of the more bland ones, I am thinking of making a section. All nicks have have been replaced with pseudonyms because I’m not sure the people involved would tolerate their words being made public.
0038.47| [Heraclitus] people would find some form of welfare, even if it weren’t funded by the government
0038.59| [Heraclitus] there’s always charity in the world for those who seek it out
0039.00| [Diogenes the Cynic] i take no drugs other than booze and smokes, and my family dates back to this country for at least three centuries
0039.13| [Arrian] Heraclitus not in contemporary western society
0039.27| [Posidonius] As long as its not the money of hard working people being used to feed scum then I don’t care
0039.31| [Arrian] no charity for charity’s sake – you’d have to convert to Judeo-Christianity
0039.48| [Heraclitus] companies invest huge amounts in welfare to boost their media sexiness
0040.08| [Arrian] Posidonius what you don’t realize is that there is a CORPORATE INCOME TAX
0040.17| [Posidonius] Hmmm, yeah
0040.18| [Arrian] it should be used on social projects and welfare
0040.31| [Arrian] instead it’s used on defense spending
0040.38| [Arrian] see, the United States never disarmed after the cold war
0040.42| [Arrian] the military budget actually went up
0040.54| [Heraclitus] and most sane people have families to rely on in times of need, so I don’t really see anything that dangerous in a liberalist society _in terms of welfare_
0041.10| [Posidonius] There is a place for welfare, it just irritates me that people that don’t deserve seem to be the majority of recipients
0041.25| [Diogenes the Cynic] well, not here
0041.31| [Posidonius] Lucky
0041.41| [Diogenes the Cynic] every time i go to the welfare office, about 5% of all people are turkish slime
0041.51| [Diogenes the Cynic] the rest are just normal people who don’t have a job at the moment
0041.52| [Posidonius] Then again, I live in the meth capitol of America, wich could be a factor in what I see
0042.06| [Arrian] I think I deserve welfare – although I don’t collect it, I don’t think students should have to work, and in Europe where most education is government sponsored they don’t have to, in the US you have to be working full time to support yourself just to have a meager condition
0042.26| [Arrian] i think artists especially should receive welfare
0042.34| [Arrian] and other people who contribute to a nation’s culture
0042.44| [Arrian] such as philosophers and scientists
0042.58| [Posidonius] Where do you hail from Arrian?
0043.01| [Arrian] new york
0043.10| [Posidonius] Ah, the other end of the country
0043.13| [Diogenes the Cynic] city or state?
0043.29| [Arrian] state, I live on long island, which is to the east of the city
0043.32| [Heraclitus] the flipside of the coin here is that a student can’t have a well-paying job or he loses all benefits
0043.35| [Diogenes the Cynic] ah
0043.47| [Heraclitus] so don’t get too much money from your summer job or the bureaucrats will flame your ass
0043.56| [Arrian] Heraclitus that makes sense though
0043.59| [Diogenes the Cynic] the bureaucrats
0044.07| [Arrian] you shouldn’t be getting a free ride when you could pay for it yourself
0044.07| [Diogenes the Cynic] you sound like senator palpatine
0044.24| [Diogenes the Cynic] what the fuck Arrian
0044.38| [Diogenes the Cynic] everything should be free to metalheads
0044.42| [Posidonius] Its a double edged sword, touchy subject
0044.48| [Posidonius] But yeah
0044.52| [Diogenes the Cynic] at least for me
0045.00| [Posidonius] I believe people should earn what they get
0045.00| [Arrian] I like the idea of government funding of students and artists
0045.11| [Arrian] but I don’t think people who contribute nothing to society should be funded
0045.17| [Posidonius] Exactley
0045.18| [Heraclitus] there’s a discrepancy here, as anyone can have the benefits for having a child (several hundred euros per month), regardless of income
0045.25| [Diogenes the Cynic] my view on politics is that i want everything for myself, and nothing for other people
0045.32| [Diogenes the Cynic] and the government should arrange just that
0045.44| [Posidonius] Hahaha, your perfect world, eh?
0045.48| [Heraclitus] but a student is supposed to be poor
0045.48| [Diogenes the Cynic] give everything to me, and let everyone else rot
0046.15| [Heraclitus] I’m off to shop food –>
0046.20| [Arrian] Heraclitus does the government pay for your tuition?
0046.22| [Posidonius] Take it easy
0046.35| [Diogenes the Cynic] tuition?
0046.37| [Diogenes the Cynic] are you kidding?
0046.38| [Heraclitus] the tuition fee is small
0046.40| [Posidonius] Scool
0046.42| [Diogenes the Cynic] it’S all a lie
0046.43| [Heraclitus] 100 euros a year
0046.48| [Diogenes the Cynic] there are no schools in finland
0046.51| [Diogenes the Cynic] only zuul
0047.04| [Heraclitus] the universities are directly funded by the government so they don’t need that much money from the students
0047.06| [Posidonius] You’re shitting me, 100 eu
0047.09| [Arrian] see Heraclitus… consider yourself lucky – most Americans who go to decent schools are 50,000+ dollars in debt by the time they have a 4 year degree
0047.24| [Diogenes the Cynic] sorry i couldn’t resist
0047.24| [Heraclitus] yeah I know
0047.26| [Posidonius] Its true
0047.30| [Heraclitus] same in britain
0047.30| [Arrian] it costs 14,000 dollars/year where I go
0047.36| [Arrian] and my school is modest
0047.56| [Arrian] I should emigrate, I hate this country anyway
0048.03| [Heraclitus] on the other hand, here the government can greatly influence what is being taught in universities
0048.09| [Diogenes the Cynic] go to australia
0048.13| [Heraclitus] so if they want multiculturalist propaganda, it’ll be taught
0048.33| [Posidonius] I see
0048.35| [Arrian] Heraclitus it’s like that in US schools though too
0048.37| [Heraclitus] I am suspicious of whether our curricula are neutral
0048.40| [Arrian] they have “diversity quotas”
0048.40| [Diogenes the Cynic] australia is supposed to be quite cool
0048.52| [Arrian] and preach how great “diversity” is
0049.05| [Diogenes the Cynic] who cares about the bias of teachings
0049.28| [Posidonius] Diversity, no child left behind, all lies
0049.29| [Arrian] Diogenes the Cynic: no one should, as long as the students are trained to be indifferent, skilled thinkers
0049.31| [Diogenes the Cynic] if you are smart enough to form your own opinion, you can still learn from teachings you disagree with
0049.32| [Heraclitus] I care about the supermarket right now —–>
0049.44| [Diogenes the Cynic] sorry Arrian
0049.47| [Arrian] because then it is more difficult to force your views upon someone
0049.50| [Diogenes the Cynic] but being thinkers can’t be taught
0050.00| [Arrian] Socratic Method can be taught
0050.03| [Diogenes the Cynic] someone either has a brain, or he doesn’t
0050.47| [Arrian] I think if everyone in the US was taught Socratic Method, rhetoric, grammar and logic as a standard
class throughout gradeschool then 99% of all social problems would evaporate
0050.58| [Diogenes the Cynic] haha no
0051.07| [Arrian] it’s just that people are disarmed, they have no skills to discern what is real, and what is a deception
0051.09| [Diogenes the Cynic] you can’t teach retards to be anything but retards
0051.13| [Arrian] because they don’t know what a deception is
0051.42| [Arrian] the media in the US constantly uses logical fallacies – and anyone who knows about logical fallacies realizes this, they realize its nonsense
0052.00| [Arrian] basically the US media wages an information war against reality
0052.08| [Posidonius] True, people are taught to except things “how they are” rather that develop the world around you with your own actions
0052.14| [Diogenes the Cynic] yes yes we know that
0052.35| [Diogenes the Cynic] but stupid people can’t wake up to reality by any teaching on earth, because they are stupid people
0052.48| [Arrian] their stupid now, but the next generations can be saved
0053.03| [Diogenes the Cynic] your optimism is just ludicrous
0053.28| [Diogenes the Cynic] it’s not a question of education
0053.28| [Arrian] its not really optimism when it comes down to it, because I think fundamental educational reforms requires fundamental reforms in government… i.e. a revolution, which in times like these is exceedingly difficult
0053.51| [Diogenes the Cynic] the truth is, the human race isn’t as “evolved” as we try to flatter ourselves to be
0053.56| [Arrian] its really just hopelessness haha
0053.59| [Diogenes the Cynic] most people are stupid, it’s that simple
0054.45| [Posidonius] not stupid per se, just unaware
0054.56| [Diogenes the Cynic] no, i don’t believe that
0055.05| [Arrian] Diogenes the Cynic I think your right that we can’t make people into geniuses, but we can teach them the BASICS of being able to think for themselves
0055.18| [Arrian] we can’t make people smarter, but we can make them wiser
0055.26| [Diogenes the Cynic] i don’t have that faith in the majority of humanity
0055.27| [Arrian] start young, an extensive culture
0055.42| [Posidonius] Come now, I’m sure that if you looked at your self a handful of years ago, you would realize how much a person can develop
0055.43| [Diogenes the Cynic] most people simply wouldn’t “get it”
0056.09| [Diogenes the Cynic] well, warhammer
0056.19| [Diogenes the Cynic] let’s get back to this once you taught a dog to talk
0056.24| [Posidonius] As can everyone really, I’ve changed, thats for sure
0056.29| [Arrian] Diogenes that’s why I think education needs to be a fundamentally changed.. it wouldn’t resemble what it is now.. you would start off with discussions and questioning rather than lectures, and hopefully the true state of things would click into place naturally instead of being dictated, contemplating and reflecting on fundamental questions would bring about a greater intellect than rote memorization
0056.57| [Arrian] people are stupid now because the education system has failed them
0057.04| [Diogenes the Cynic] no
0057.08| [Arrian] I see promise in willfully stupid people right now, but their apathy holds them back
0057.19| [Arrian] you have to rouse their passions, get them angry at the chains that bind them, so that they aspire to be something better than mediocre
0057.20| [Posidonius] By learning out of text books, you aren’t learning a great deal, just memorizing “facts”
0057.24| [Diogenes the Cynic] people are stupid because their parents were stupid, and their parents were stupid, and all of their brains were small
0057.52| [Diogenes the Cynic] stupidity isn’t something you acquire through poor education
0057.59| [Hypatia] what Diogenes sez.
0058.01| [Arrian] Diogenes that is true, some people are surely smarter than others, in the speed of computations and what not, but you can be a simple man and still be a good man, it doesn’t require a genius
0058.14| [Posidonius] Ignorance is all too often mistaken for stupidity
0058.26| [Diogenes the Cynic] people who can think for themselves can think for themselves
0058.27| [Hypatia] there are obviously intelligent people who attend terrible schools.
0058.32| [Diogenes the Cynic] regardless of education
0058.45| [Arrian] I can tell you right now, if I grew up in a Christian fundamentalist household I would not resemble who I am today
0059.00| [Diogenes the Cynic] i don’t think so
0059.02| [Diogenes the Cynic] i mean
0059.10| [Diogenes the Cynic] outside influences affect one’s character
0059.21| [Hypatia] Education is not the same thing as having common sense, an actual drive for learning, and thinking for yourself.
0059.25| [Diogenes the Cynic] but i don’t think outside influences can make a dumb person smart
0059.44| [Arrian] not smart in the innate ability, but wiser, more able, better skilled
0100.00| [Arrian] skilled is the key word I think
0100.25| [Hypatia] skilled at what?
0100.26| [Diogenes the Cynic] thinking for yourself isn’t a skill
0100.35| [Diogenes the Cynic] it’s a virtue of smartness
0100.47| [Arrian] maybe
0100.57| [Diogenes the Cynic] you can’t learn it, you either can do it, or can’t do it
0101.02| [Posidonius] Look at it this way, many people think Johova is the one true god, yadda yadda, but its only because in many cases they were brought up to believe that without question, which often stunts mental development from outside sourses
0101.18| [Arrian] Hypatia: skilled in the mental process, most people aren’t trained to think, and so think irrationally, but if you train someone to think, their thoughts become clearer
0101.22| [Posidonius] sources*
0101.26| [Arrian] that is the goal of philosophy in its true form
0101.47| [Arrian] I am a much more logically rigorous thinker now than I was 2 or 3 years ago
0101.57| [Diogenes the Cynic] i see the logic
0101.58| [Hypatia] i don’t think you can really train someone to think.
0101.59| [Arrian] because I dedicate the majority of my time to mental exercise
0102.09| [Diogenes the Cynic] people who are taught only black, know only black
0102.12| [Hypatia] You kind of have to be exposed to intelligent people.
0102.20| [Diogenes the Cynic] people who are taught black and white can make a decision for themselves
0102.28| [Diogenes the Cynic] in the most simple possible terms
0102.46| [Arrian] surely Hypatia, which is why the requirements for teachers should go beyond having a degree, teachers should be required to be revolutionaries, and exemplify heroic examples of character
0102.52| [Arrian] inspiring forces
0103.07| [Posidonius] But most people are brought up to see things one way, from one angle, with no room for interpritation
0103.09| [Arrian] not all degree holders are equal
0103.20| [Diogenes the Cynic] yes Posidonius, that’s what i mean
0103.28| [Diogenes the Cynic] it’s an interesting point
0103.35| [Hypatia] many students don’t consider their teachers their peers though.
0103.50| [Hypatia] Because they’re not. You can’t hang out with your teacher and having conversations with them
0104.07| [Arrian] Hypatia: that’s another fundamental flaw, the platonic school was much different, and people sat in a circle of friends instead of having rows with a pedantic and superficially superior lecturer in front
0104.11| [Diogenes the Cynic] i still don’t think that being taught only one viewpoint would prevent a smart mind from thinking of another
0104.23| [Diogenes the Cynic] the biggest virtue of smartness i think is creativity
0104.30| [Posidonius] But when they are exposed to outside stimuli, they may, or may not develope into a very different individual, depending on how deeply rooted it is
0104.36| [Diogenes the Cynic] the ability to think of things you didn’t learn about
0104.43| [Diogenes the Cynic] if you know what i mean
0104.43| [Hypatia] Creativity isn’t necessarily related to intelligence.
0104.53| [Diogenes the Cynic] Hypatia, not creativity per se
0104.59| [Diogenes the Cynic] creativity in the sense of thinking
0105.05| [Arrian] Innovative thinking
0105.09| [Diogenes the Cynic] yes
0105.30| [Diogenes the Cynic] like i said, thinking of things you weren’t taught, but thought of yourself
0105.56| [Arrian] I think all intelligent people come to the same conclusions about the universe
0106.05| [Arrian] or similar conclusions
0106.17| [Diogenes the Cynic] in a sense, lack of education could even be helpful
0106.26| [Diogenes the Cynic] because it inspires the imagination to do more for itself
0106.37| [Diogenes the Cynic] and be less dependent on outside inputs
0106.50| [Arrian] Diogenes the Cynic: but what if the purpose of education was to cultivate the ability to question everything, and in questioning, search for knowledge, and truth?
0106.55| [Hypatia] the busywork of school is worthless.
0107.02| [Hypatia] especially high school.
0107.19| [Arrian] the problem with contemporary education, at least in the US, is that the goal of education is to memorize factoids, there is no mental education
0107.19| [Diogenes the Cynic] Arrian, i think that ability is either in a person, or it isn’t
0107.37| [Arrian] people are virtually defenseless once they enter into the world
0107.55| [Arrian] marketing easily sways them, as does pretty faces on TV, and sophist politicians
0107.59| [Herodotus] That’s the way the government likes it, dontcha know.
0108.07| [Hypatia] As long as you’re intelligent enough to think for yourself, know a great deal already, and are fairly independent, then a lot of schooling would be just a waste of time.
0108.38| [Arrian] Herodotus: Exactly… which leads to my ultimate conclusion, the only way to resolve this obscene situation is to fundamentally reform the government, because only they can craft society in an image, only they are the true social engineers
0108.38| [Diogenes the Cynic] intelligence is a tricky thing
0108.42| [Herodotus] I really think you can’t teach people to be cynics, which I think is what you’re getting at.
0108.46| [Arrian] only from the top down can true change be made
0108.54| [Diogenes the Cynic] i’ve known so many straight a nerds that were dumb as hell
0108.59| [Arrian] and so the top must be forced to enact this change, the top must change
0109.23| [Herodotus] Yeah, good luck with that.
0109.27| [Arrian] a sad conclusion, but i think the only logical one…
0109.40| [Posidonius] adults often cannot be taught, but if the proper education starts early, there is hope
0109.46| [Diogenes the Cynic] heh what is happening here
0109.56| [Diogenes the Cynic] am I finding myself on one side with Herodotus?
0110.07| [Diogenes the Cynic] oh well
0110.08| [Arrian] We need something like No Child Left Behind, a federal mandate, except with the explicit goal of fundamentally changing the nature of education to include rhetoric, grammar, logic, philosophy, communication, debating etc
0110.14| [Diogenes the Cynic] such things happen i guess
0110.22| [Arrian] it wont ever come because exactly what Herodotus said, it’s useful for the people to be powerless
0110.46| [Diogenes the Cynic] Grammar?
0110.56| [Diogenes the Cynic] you mean Americans don’t learn grammar in school?
0110.58| [Posidonius] well yes, its easy to control people if they are kept ignorant, docile, and comfortable
0111.08| [Hypatia] They don’t. All they do is crossword puzzles.
0111.11| [Diogenes the Cynic] i find that hard to believe
0111.16| [Hypatia] And coloring pages for extra credit.
0111.17| [Arrian] Diogenes the Cynic: I don’t mean basic grammar, I mean grammar in arguments
0111.41| [Diogenes the Cynic] i spent five years in school with one tiresome grammar lesson after another
0111.46| [Arrian] every sentence has a truth value, and if one is trained in rhetoric, grammar and logic – they can derive if it is false or true
0111.53| [Diogenes the Cynic] from fourth to ninth grade
0111.55| [Hypatia] You learn grammar up to high school, then all you have in English class is literature.
0112.10| [Herodotus] Hypatia, you’re full of shit
0112.18| [Hypatia] …how?
0112.26| [Diogenes the Cynic] because you have a large intestine
0112.28| [Arrian] I think they should have a separate class – philosophy/civics which should include the skills necessary for proper and clear thinking
0112.37| [Herodotus] Half of my English classes all throughout high school dealt exclusively with grammar
0112.53| [Diogenes the Cynic] yeah Herodotus
0112.56| [Herodotus] (Half in time spent, not number)
0113.00| [Diogenes the Cynic] but you’re from florida
0113.07| [Hypatia] i’m not in school anymore.
0113.12| [Hypatia] Maybe I just never found out.
0113.17| [Diogenes the Cynic] it has to be taught there so people can explain the language to the puerto ricans
0113.24| [Herodotus] I didn’t find grammar tedious, though. I rather liked it.
0113.28| [Arrian] Herodotus yeah but did you ever see an argument from the bible or a philosopher and break it down to rule it logically rigorous or not?
0113.39| [Hypatia] it’s Cubans in Florida.
0113.46| [Herodotus] No. Fuck that shit.
0113.49| [Arrian] such classes don’t exist in gradeschool, they only exist in the college AT BEST, a true disgrace
0114.04| [Hypatia] high schoolers are too fucking stupid to grasp it.
0114.05| [Diogenes the Cynic] it’s cubans AND puerto ricans
0114.07| [Herodotus] They don’t belong in grade school
0114.13| [Hypatia] do you really expect anyone to take those courses voluntarily?
0114.19| [Hypatia] and they’re certainly not going to make it mandatory.
0114.27| [Herodotus] The history classes are bad enough as far as brainwashing, you want fucking theology?!
0114.29| [Arrian] Herodotus: that sort of thinking is necessary for all citizens
0114.58| [Arrian] It’s not theology – its just judging the logical value of statements.
0115.04| [Arrian] Which really means, cultivating the skills to debunk theology, pseudoscience and fashion – and in doing so create a citizenry which is vigilant of being deceived