Epicurus says: Make no mistake, a key component of attacking an argument is to undermine the credibility of the source of said argument. That, however, is not what I am doing here. I am actually trying to understand where Cato is coming from.
Epicurus says: I would not argue against the fact that, in many area’s of this country, public education is a mess. I wouldn’t argue that our Social Welfare system is, in many respects, broken. I would even argue that our current government is a disaster and that if we don’t force them to start dealing with some very serious problems, we are going to have our hands full during the next 3 decades. What I am arguing is that this is nothing new. Crisis come and
Epicurus says: So, instead of sitting around talking about how “Social Collapse” makes one “want to leave this country” then I say, do something or STFU or GTFO. Want to talk solutions and action – I am all for that, but don’t waste my time with idiotic rehashed commentary about the state of the world.
Epicurus says: Especially when you are barely out of your fucking teens and haven’t seen or experienced jack, fucking, shit.
Amafinius says: I agree on that last point
Cato says: you can’t accomplish much by yourself; an important patriotic duty is to rise the spirits of the people
Epicurus says: Cato – that is not what you were doing.
Epicurus says: You were making the standard gloom and doom proclamations.
Cato says: i just think its always important to look to higher ideals in a republic, which is why i said if you take the character of the founders and compare it to the “men” in office now, its clear to see how much progress we have made
Cato says: the government has taken away freedoms rather than expanded the freedoms of the people
Epicurus says: My friend, our founding fathers were people who were grossly flawed.
Cato says: all humans can be weak, most people have vices, some of the founders had flaws, but the quality of their character was far greater
Cato says: and how can anyone say they are proud to be Americans under these latter day fools?
Cato says: it is critical for the people in a republic to realize corruption and destroy it
Cato says: or… hand over the government to monarchs who will do much better
Epicurus says: Every generation has a few great leaders. That our country was founded by them was the only way that our republic would have come to be. But, lost in time are the numerous lousy politico’s of the 19th and 20th century. Sure, we remember the great ones, like FDR or Lincoln, but those come along fairly infrequently. The good news, is they often rise to the occasion and, were in fact, fairly poorly thought-of prior to tackling a big problem.
Epicurus says: I think the problem is you are looking at 8 years (a big part of your fairly short life) under one of the WORST presidents in history.
Cato says: anyway, this is all related to the original point of underage girls being a common sight in bars – the problem here is a lack of a “public body”
Epicurus says: No, the problem is parents not fucking taking responsibility for their kids.
Cato says: Yes, they don’t have public accountability; there is this notion that the family is not the business of the public
Epicurus says: It is NOT my job or the Governments job to look after these kids. It IS however my job, when the time comes, to look after MY kids.
Cato says: “its not your business” “Raise your own kids” common lines
Cato says: it is not the government’s job to raise children, perhaps, but it should be responsible in creating public accountability for actions
Cato says: the problem is that there is a disconnect between public life and private life – this cannot be in a republic or the country collapses
Cato says: there are other government structures where the people can send their children to underage bars, in which case, a tyrant will organize their lives for them, it is much more effective that way
Cato says: but in a culture where the people must steer the government, if the people are without willpower or virtue, then the government collapses – i.e. post-“crisis of the 3rd century” rome
Epicurus says: Cato – Not only is it a REQUIREMENT that there be a disconnect between private and personal life, any attempt to break down such barriers is the VERY source of these problem. Parents who have been raised in an era of government intervention.
Epicurus says: Infact, such separations are clearly spelled out in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Cato says: what im saying is, parents dont feel that they should be held accountable to the community for raising their children, but they should
Cato says: their personal conduct, in their eyes, is their own business
Cato says: very well, if a tyrant rules, not well if you vote
Cato says: a culture of idiots and degenerates cannot vote wisely, and a country that cannot vote wisely cannot be healthy
Cato says: options are to: restore republican culture, abandon republican culture and adopt an aristocracy
Epicurus says: You are charged, by the state, for being responsible for your child’s welfare until the age of 18. It’s already LAW. CLEARLY THE PROBLEM is with parents lack of responsibility – something that GOVERNMENT and the PUBLIC at large is NOT going to directly fix.
Cato says: I’m not talking about buying them food and clothes
Cato says: I’m talking about raising them to be good people
Cato says: because if the people are not good, in a republic, then the republic as a whole is rotten
Epicurus says: Cato – IT IS NOT THE GOVERNMENTS JOB or the PUBLIC’s JOB to raise kids. This whole liberal bullshit “Takes a Village to Raise a Child” is absolute nonsense. This is a matter of YOU and ME making a decision to be responsible adults and raise our children accordingly.
Cato says: well… historically it did take a community to raise a child, only in contemporary times have people decided that the education of children is a private matter
Cato says: and the result is clear to see, a culture which is dysfunctional
Cato says: education should be a process including public mentors, parents, moral leaders, peer role models and government ideals
Cato says: if the parents are the only ones with input, and if they have discretion to neglect their children, the children become dysfunctional, and they will elect dysfunctional representatives
Epicurus says: Oh my god
Cato says: this is the heart of why it is necessary to have virtuous individuals in a republic, because over time the representatives degenerate
Epicurus says: You would cede control of your kids’ core-education to the government. That to me is just disgraceful.
Cato says: not exactly
Cato says: you have this notion of government as being this isolated body of people which is not related to the community
Epicurus says: No, I don’t.
Cato says: but what if the “government” were just people who you thought were wise?
Epicurus says: Oh my god.
Cato says: i don’t think it’s a matter of control either, or ownership…
Epicurus says: Listen, government, by in large, throughout history, exists to propogate itself under the guise of serving the population. It is one of the core ideals, that the founders of this nation largely shared, that government at best is a necessary evil and at worst intolerable (and that it was usually only tolerable at the most local levels).
Epicurus says: The notion that “wise” people become leaders is absolutely rediculous.
Cato says: they dont, which is the problem
Epicurus says: Only RARELY does that occur.
Cato says: exactly
Epicurus says: Yes, and you want to cede control or even a portion of control of your childs destiny to this body?
Epicurus says: Come on!
Cato says: no, I want to dismiss them and replace them with wise, indifferent guardians
Cato says: like the ones who originally were in their seats
Amafinius says: Haha!
Epicurus says: Raise your kids. Don’t expect the government to do it. Don’t expect anyone else to make it right. JUST BE A RESPONSIBLE ADULT.
Amafinius says: “wise, indifferent guardians”
Cato says: Epicurus – that makes the most sense, but in reality most contemporary Americans do not
Cato says: so what is your response to that – let the community suffer?
Epicurus says: Actually, most do. It’s only a minority that doesn’t.
Cato says: would you object to children joining the boy scouts?
Epicurus says: Unfortunately, being a spastic, sound bite obsessed culture; we only focus on those who don’t.
Cato says: I am not advocating government control; I am advocating a re-envisioning of education to involve a heavy emphasis on community involvement and the appreciation of civic virtue
Cato says: because I believe that a proper education is the farthest thing away from ill-tempered knowledge
Cato says: it is rather wisdom, and virtue guiding knowledge
Cato says: knowledge is a tool, wisdom is the vehicle, virtue is the blood of life
Cato says: basically… practically speaking…
Cato says: it would mean much more programs like the boy scouts
Cato says: and teachers who are involved with the education of the character rather than simply the mind, teaching children how to become heroic individuals
Epicurus says: Look, the Boy Scouts (who again, I don’t support) is something you sign your kids up for. You made a decision as a parent. That shit is not advertised or promoted in publicly funded schools (and where it is, it shouldn’t be).
Arrian says: Epicurus
Epicurus says: School is about education. Morals, ethics, education regarding virtues, etc., that starts at home.
Arrian says: were you in the boy scouts?
Epicurus says: no
Arrian says: why do you not like the boy scouts
Epicurus says: I was a cub scout when I was like 7 or something… does that count?
Epicurus says: Arrian – no, I don’t like them because of the politics of their organization. But, hey, if my kids said they really wanted to go for the scouts, I would probably let them.
Cato says: you send your children to school to learn the science of physics, but there is also a science of virtue
Cato says: it’s a sublime science, but learning how to live well is not arbitrary, it is a quest, and requires serious thought, parents are not qualified to teach a love of wisdom just as they are not qualified to teach physics
Epicurus says: No Cato – you are crossing a line when you start using public schools to fund notions of virtue, ethics and morals.
Epicurus says: Not fund, I mean teach
Cato says: Some beliefs are examined, others are not, the goal of a proper education would be to examine beliefs, and to inspire children to quest for goodness
Lucretius says: “goodness”
Lucretius says: what kind of bullshit is going on here?
Cato says: a teacher of philosophy, for example, is just as important as a teacher of physics
Epicurus says: What do you define as goodness?
Epicurus says: Whose philosophy?
Cato says: All ideas and thoughts are to be considered, goodness must be judged by the individual soul, firmly grounded in civic values
Epicurus says: Oh my god, dude, you are not living in the real world.
Amafinius says: heh….book lernin’
Lucretius says: his last statement speaks to something else too
Cato says: I think to a certain degree, that children should be challenged to think about their underlying assumptions and come to their own conclusions, but that the teacher should not be far removed from the debate, as is the case now, the teacher should advocate their own maxims
Epicurus says: You have now brought religion into the classroom in broad strokes. Good going.
Epicurus says: Remind me to NOT vote for you.